Borgata Poker Open - Sept 4th-21st, 2018

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Comments

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    @krista - Argh! Looking for the ping-pong paddle again now. While I'm doing that, let me try to go through this piece by piece. Opening 7/5s from the CO isn't particularly loose. If you are opening a 30% range from the CO, you are opening that hand. If you aren't opening at least 30% from the CO, you are playing way too tight for decent cash games.

    As to calling a 3-bet in position, that's an easy call for me. It fits nicely into my open-call range. Extremely playable hand in general and likely to win very large pots when it hits. I would have been more apt to fold hands like ATo, QTo and other hands like that, which would be far harder to play postflop and are hands that are often dominated by BB's 3-bet ranges. 7/5s works well with an open-call range that includes hands like 66-TT, AQs, KQs and so on. You also have to consider that just because the BB 3-bet, it doesn't mean he had a premium holding. An open from the CO doesn't get a lot of credit for being strong so the 3-bet could have been with a fairly wide range of hands.

    On a that specific 9-high flop, with my double gutshot draw, I am doing pretty well against a merged 3-bet range of say ~12.5%. My hand has about 41.5% equity against it and I'm in position. A 50% c-bet requires 33% raw equity to continue. If I fold this part of my range to that bet size, I am over-folding and therefore being exploited. I chose to float with the draws I had here, same as I would have done for a good portion of my range. Made hands of 1-pair with or without backdoor draws and all my sets would have flatted here. Hands I would raise with are combo draws and some air.

    Making the call means I have 8 outs to effectively the nuts, 6 of which are clean. Plus, and this is the important part, I am in position. From what you wrote above, you think I should have folded my 41% equity to a bet that only required me to have 33% and you gave no premium to positional advantage or implied odds. Argh.

    I happened to make the nuts on the turn and that is a bonus. However, my plan wasn't entirely about binking the right card to make my hand. If villain showed any weakness, there are plenty of cards that I can bet to take the pot away from him, even if I was behind. Say he didn't have KK here and the turn is still the same 4. Say he has something like AQs or any 2 overcards. He may very well check these hands on the turn. With or without having made my straight, I could then apply pressure. It would be very hard for him to continue with much of his range - ~70% of his 3-betting range is still A-high or just overcards at this point. What do you think he's going to do with that much air? If I have any pair at all on the turn, I'm 66%+ against his entire range. That's a tough spot for him to be in OOP.

    I appreciate your passion for the game but I think you need to examine things a bit more rigorously before criticizing plays that may not make sense to you on 1st examination. This is where the boring work on Flopzilla comes in handy. If you were studying ranges and equity evolution, you would have had a better understanding of how this hand played out and why. You simply cannot fold as much as you seem to have wanted me to and still expect to be profitable in the long-term. You also need to consider all the ways a pot can be won, aside from having the best hand at showdown.

    I am far from the best player on the planet. I make mistakes all the time. Plenty of them. Some good plays also just don't work out. I lost a big hand repping the nut-flush to someone's baby flush earlier. I held the key Ace in position and overbet the river after having whiffed on all my draws (had the flush and straight draws). My plan was to barrel the river whether I hit or not on any card that didn't pair the board. It happened not to have worked out that time. It did however tell me that that particular player was willing to call very large bets with marginal hands. I'll profit from the play I made just from that information - next time I'll overbet with nutted-type hands and expect to be called by worse.

    Long post but I hope a good one. You are learning the game but IMO you are too quick to dismiss certain ideas without having fully thought them through. Get over that. Do the work we talked about and see for yourself the types of things you can do with certain hands. As you move up in levels, you aren't going to be able to make money just coming at people head-on. You will have to start looking for other ways to go about it. You will need to get creative. You won't be able to do that if you come into it with your opinions already set. Be open to new ideas and examine them rigorously rather than just reacting off the top of your head. You have a good head and I want you to keep it open, ok?

    BTW, I lost about 1/2 my buy-in tonight (same stakes). Good action but that 1 failed bluff took a large chunk out of me. Ballsy call by her with a 5-high flush to that size bet. I get that bet through most players 75%+ of the time if they are holding less than 3rd nuts. Heck, I'm folding her hand to a bet that size unless I have a really great read. 5-high to a 125% pot bet on the river? Whew.

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    ok lol lets take a poll

    who out there playin for significant money

    will if they open RFI ... not a suited connector... not a one gapper... but a two gapper

    then call a 3 bet??? with 9 high

    if they do that then i like play at that table

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster

    @krista - This is where we part ways. I've tried to be nice and have taken quite a lot of time with trying to help and encourage you. Sadly, you repeatedly responded to these efforts like a petulant child: Rude and overestimating your grasp of the subject. I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits and hope that in a few years you actually know 1/2 of what you think you do now.

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster

    ok... sad you no take joke or criticism

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    @krista said:
    ok... sad you no take joke or criticism

    I actually like humor and want criticism. However, comments like "no one plays like that for money" and "you have to be kidding me" are in no way useful or constructive. IMO, hand analysis is the best way to learn and having people deconstruct your play is very valuable. I want to be challenged on my thought process. That requires other players to actually think and provide input. This is what communities of players do for each other on every decent poker forum on the planet. I've tried to steer you towards engaging constructively but this doesn't see to interest you. If it isn't a 2-way street, then its not worthwhile for me. I certainly don't need to be treated rudely when I've been trying to help.

    If you ever discuss hands with other players in the future, I hope you will do so in a courteous and helpful way. If you continue to engage as you have here, you will find not many people interested in helping you when you have questions. That will only harm your development.

    Again, GL and TC. Its time for me to move on to a more active community anyway. Its a shame so few members use this resource on the site. It should be one of the most valuable features here, especially since they make it so easy to post hands.

  • pgearan
    pgearan

    To All -

    Sometimes humor or what is intended to be good natured banter doesn't translate well in written word. There have been some great exchange of ideas in the forum as of late and we do see it continuing to grow, so we hope all members that wish to continue to post and comment. There's a lot to be gained from one another.

    I do want everyone to keep in mind that there are endless approaches to the game in general and even with specific hands. I've watched pros passionately debate whether certain approaches to hands are correct, having diametrically different views. That's what's fun about hand analysis and I do think learning works best when people are open to new ideas, especially the ones where they think "That can't be right!". I know when I started playing, I would see other players take certain approaches and think "That's nuts!". Ten years later, I employ similar strategies that previously I would have thought were bad poker.

    I read something recently, I think maybe from Alex Fitzgerald, to the effect that if other players (especially at lower levels) think you are playing correctly, you are likely doing something wrong. When other players get frustrated and befuddled by our play, we're likely on to something. That's an oversimplification of course, some things are just bad poker, but many, many strategies have sound basis even though they may look odd to some. Understanding the players logic and thinking through whether you agree is where the learning comes from these exchanges.

    We at APT really appreciate the idea exchange among members, and hope everyone keeps it up, and is open to constructive critiques!

  • dogsandjacks
    dogsandjacks
    New Poster

    Hey there folks!
    I will be driving down on Saturday 9/15 and play in the SAT at 6PM. If I don't make it in that one I'll try again Sunday. If I bomb out completely I have to drive back Sunday night for work on Monday. If I do make it into the 3,5k event, let's just say I have some :p hours banked.
    A couple of things I've been learning from Alex, 1) "balancing" isn't really that important in tournaments at these levels since even if anyone is noticing you're not going to play with them long enough for it to matter. 2) Don't waste chips! My biggest leak over the past couple of years has been not folding on the turn or river when it was clear I needed a miracle to prevail. 3) 3 betting and 4 betting is like the Fool in the Tarot deck stepping off the cliff. Sometimes you can't see where you're going but you have to do it anyway.
    I bought a piece of Alex in the main event so maybe I'll stick around just to sweat him even if I bust out. Hope to see some of you there!

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster

    Congrats to APT site pro, Alex Fitzgerald for his 39th place finish in the Main Event! He wanted better but this is solid. Considering I did not cash in any of the 3 tournaments I played in, I'd trade with him in a minute. Alex has skills and I could see him easily making a nice income on the side playing half a dozen or so a year.

  • highfive
    highfive
    Power Poster
    @1warlock took three swings and whiffed them all. Did you do any good @dogsandjacks ?
  • hardlifeh
    hardlife
    Veteran

    @1warlock said:
    @krista - Argh! Looking for the ping-pong paddle again now. While I'm doing that, let me try to go through this piece by piece. Opening 7/5s from the CO isn't particularly loose. If you are opening a 30% range from the CO, you are opening that hand. If you aren't opening at least 30% from the CO, you are playing way too tight for decent cash games.

    As to calling a 3-bet in position, that's an easy call for me. It fits nicely into my open-call range. Extremely playable hand in general and likely to win very large pots when it hits. I would have been more apt to fold hands like ATo, QTo and other hands like that, which would be far harder to play postflop and are hands that are often dominated by BB's 3-bet ranges. 7/5s works well with an open-call range that includes hands like 66-TT, AQs, KQs and so on. You also have to consider that just because the BB 3-bet, it doesn't mean he had a premium holding. An open from the CO doesn't get a lot of credit for being strong so the 3-bet could have been with a fairly wide range of hands.

    On a that specific 9-high flop, with my double gutshot draw, I am doing pretty well against a merged 3-bet range of say ~12.5%. My hand has about 41.5% equity against it and I'm in position. A 50% c-bet requires 33% raw equity to continue. If I fold this part of my range to that bet size, I am over-folding and therefore being exploited. I chose to float with the draws I had here, same as I would have done for a good portion of my range. Made hands of 1-pair with or without backdoor draws and all my sets would have flatted here. Hands I would raise with are combo draws and some air.

    Making the call means I have 8 outs to effectively the nuts, 6 of which are clean. Plus, and this is the important part, I am in position. From what you wrote above, you think I should have folded my 41% equity to a bet that only required me to have 33% and you gave no premium to positional advantage or implied odds. Argh.

    I happened to make the nuts on the turn and that is a bonus. However, my plan wasn't entirely about binking the right card to make my hand. If villain showed any weakness, there are plenty of cards that I can bet to take the pot away from him, even if I was behind. Say he didn't have KK here and the turn is still the same 4. Say he has something like AQs or any 2 overcards. He may very well check these hands on the turn. With or without having made my straight, I could then apply pressure. It would be very hard for him to continue with much of his range - ~70% of his 3-betting range is still A-high or just overcards at this point. What do you think he's going to do with that much air? If I have any pair at all on the turn, I'm 66%+ against his entire range. That's a tough spot for him to be in OOP.

    I appreciate your passion for the game but I think you need to examine things a bit more rigorously before criticizing plays that may not make sense to you on 1st examination. This is where the boring work on Flopzilla comes in handy. If you were studying ranges and equity evolution, you would have had a better understanding of how this hand played out and why. You simply cannot fold as much as you seem to have wanted me to and still expect to be profitable in the long-term. You also need to consider all the ways a pot can be won, aside from having the best hand at showdown.

    I am far from the best player on the planet. I make mistakes all the time. Plenty of them. Some good plays also just don't work out. I lost a big hand repping the nut-flush to someone's baby flush earlier. I held the key Ace in position and overbet the river after having whiffed on all my draws (had the flush and straight draws). My plan was to barrel the river whether I hit or not on any card that didn't pair the board. It happened not to have worked out that time. It did however tell me that that particular player was willing to call very large bets with marginal hands. I'll profit from the play I made just from that information - next time I'll overbet with nutted-type hands and expect to be called by worse.

    Long post but I hope a good one. You are learning the game but IMO you are too quick to dismiss certain ideas without having fully thought them through. Get over that. Do the work we talked about and see for yourself the types of things you can do with certain hands. As you move up in levels, you aren't going to be able to make money just coming at people head-on. You will have to start looking for other ways to go about it. You will need to get creative. You won't be able to do that if you come into it with your opinions already set. Be open to new ideas and examine them rigorously rather than just reacting off the top of your head. You have a good head and I want you to keep it open, ok?

    BTW, I lost about 1/2 my buy-in tonight (same stakes). Good action but that 1 failed bluff took a large chunk out of me. Ballsy call by her with a 5-high flush to that size bet. I get that bet through most players 75%+ of the time if they are holding less than 3rd nuts. Heck, I'm folding her hand to a bet that size unless I have a really great read. 5-high to a 125% pot bet on the river? Whew.

    An interesting post 1warlock thanks for explaining about the 7/5s play in more detail that's given me something new to think about and try out.

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