This may look like a Hand Review Question But its AI or GOD question

allidoiswin

Advanced Poker Training MTT, Table: Daily Casino Tournament MTT, $80000 BB (4 handed)
Hand Replay Tool

Hero (BB) ($1286704)
Cutoff ($4213826)
Button ($957470)
SB ($3542000)

https://www.advancedpokertraining.com/poker/game.php?replay_id=156229&advisor_id=-1

How did the AI call this all in?

AllenBlay

Oh yeah, I missed that you were suited. But that doesn't change what villain was thinking about your range. If he for some reason thought you would push with anything, there are a lot of people out there who would make the call in the right situation.

In a real tourney, it depends on a ton of factors including whether the villain puts a lot of intrinsic value/joy on knocking someone out. The bots are designed to play like normal humans, not in a pure GTO fashion. I still think a lot of people call off 1 million chips there on a 40/60 with the opportunity to knock someone out if they think you are pushing with anything because the odds are pretty much there to make the call. Obviously you are happy when he does make the call because you've clearly got a dominant hand. But if he didn't know that, the call isn't really all that horrible that it makes me think the bot is somehow completely messed up.

That said, if the bots were making that type of call all the time, there is a problem. I don't think they do - in fact I think they fold a little too much to shorter stack pushes with reasonable odds.

Thanks for posting the hand, it's an interesting discussion and situation.

AllenBlay

Not having seen previous play I can't say for sure what the bot was thinking, but that seems to be the line the bot was playing. Big stack raising small with any 2 suited cards or better basically into a small stack in the BB with the plan to call any push from you. If he's expecting you to push with close to half of your hands, he's getting close to the odds to call. If he thinks you'll push with any two, he's getting the odds. I plugged a few numbers into the ICM calculator and it's very close depending on range assumptions. I know the bots work off of ICM with a little bit of randomness thrown in there, so the call doesn't seem all that far out there given the line.

As far as the results, it never feels good to lose, but you were only a 61-39 favorite (two unsuited overcards vs. suited 2-gapper), so the loss isn't unusual.

allidoiswin

Lol, Not worried about the results of a sim game/hand with fake money. Solely focused on the fact that with a smaller stack on the table, a player would not CALL off 25% of stack with 85s, against a tighter range player, SPECIALLY when losing the hand would lose the caller the chip lead at final table with 4 players left.

Allen I had suited overcards, so AQs vs 85s is actually 64/36 and it increases to 66/34 if you plug exact cards. EVEN if the bot figured 64-66/36-34 range result, the POT ODDS it took was to call 25% of his chips @1.1M into a pot of 1.6M.

Playing a less than 9 handed table has additional considerations obviously. Anyone playing 6 max successfully, knows to adjust to the fact that low connectors, gappers severely go down in value because of less showdown value. I would be perfectly OK with bot play if it was 10% of his chips, or had K2s (high card showdown value on short table), or POT ODDS made sense, or meta game considerations were in favor of this call.

Allen, this is not a rant. Just trying to comment/help in case you want to improve bot response to help us all get better. Also, maybe the bot can show its cards once its an all in spot with no betting left (like irl live tournaments), and not wait till the end of the hand .

Cheers.

highfive

Weird but this hand happened to me in real money play. Villain was an annoying loud mouth. He was a little tilted and still moaning about losing the previous pot. He raised and i shipped 85 bigs with AQ to jerk his chain. He called with 85s and i lost the hand.

I think the result IS affecting the question. After you shipped, if villain turned over the cards and asked, " do you want a call?", how would you answer? Hopefully you'd answer yes while doing a joyful back flip. You even have the suit covered.

So real people will play this way.

allidoiswin

Like I said " I would be perfectly OK with bot play if it was 10% of his chips, or had **K2s **(high card showdown value on short table), or POT ODDS made sense, or meta game considerations were in favor of this call." So no, losing has no relation to question. My question was not WHY did I lose, but How did the AI make the call?

Your irl example tells me that at 85bb deep stacks, 'shipping to jerk someones chain', was not at a Final Table with ICM considerations for TOP3 prize money, playing short table, $440 tourney with 1000 entries, with 26bb avg stack. So again, not comparable. I have played enough live tourneys to come across the full spectrum of players, with enough 6 fig wins to not be affected by sim loss. Not a brag, just want to get across the fact that the question is not out of frustration. Even between two most aggressive pros it would take a raise/3bet/4bet shove and crying POT ODDS call to have this happen at FT with real prize money at stake.

It is most likely a failed attempt at pointing out a potential AI flaw and chance at improvement. Never was attempting to get hand analysis discussion in this part of the forum. I think my fault is to expect this at Medium level difficulty. Maybe, at hard/hardest the AI is better.