As of November 2021, the APT Forum is closed to new posts. Like with many online forums, usage has decreased in recent years. All previous posts are still available.
What position was the original open made from and what was your position? Full-ring or short-handed? This will help define BB's 3-beting range. Were you playing at the table for a while and get to see any of the hands BB was showing down with? Thanks for posting the question. I enjoy discussing preflop strategies with hands like JJ and TT. Everyone knows how to play AA and KK but things get more interesting as we move down the pocket-pair hierarchy.
What an interesting way to join a table! Well, unless he was making a really strange move with garbage, he has to call if you shove (and you really can't do anything but fold or shove). Cost him 90 more into a pot of ~270. Actually he can really call with almost anything unless he would fold rather than show he was making a move.
You have to decide whether to put 150 to work for a pot of 360 when he calls. That requires ~42% equity vs his 3-bet range. If you think he will only 3-bet with QQ+, AK then you don't have the required equity to call (36.4%) so you should fold. If you think he would also 3-bet with AQ, then you have the equity to call at 42.8%, but just barely. You would have to decide whether you're in a gambling mood or not and place 150 on a coin flip. If you think his range is any wider, say including AJs along with A3s-A5s, then your equity comes up to over 48%. Still close to a flip.
So, if I was in a feisty mood and had a few rebuys left in my pocket, I could find a call here. Win or lose the hand, I've set myself up to get action for the rest of the session and that works for me. However, if I didn't have money to reload a few times, a more prudent decision would be to grit my teeth and make a really tough fold. Cost me 20 but I still have 75BB to work with and look for better spots. If I had any hint of a clue that he was squeezing light, I snap him off but you said you had no info yet. Therefore I'll be a nit and say I'd probably fold. I'd absolutely hate it but I think this is the better play in the absence of information. I don't need to flip for stacks so I'd settle in and get to work recouping my 20 chips, plus exhrbitant interest
ADDED: I reviewed this and made a mistake. I thought it was a 1/2 game and you would have 75BB left. Upon reading it through again, I see it was a 2/5 game so you would only have 30BB left. I'm not sure I'd sit at a table with that short a stack anyway so my opinion is shifting to shoving it and doubling up or going home. 30BB in a cash game isn't enough to work with IMO. Always top off if you can.
I topped off pretty much right after that. But with the effective stacks, it really played like a lower-stacked game. Also, aggressor was a “she,” just so we’re using the correct pronouns.
I’m figuring I don’t want to flip for stacks just yet. But I’m also figuring she’s ready for a tussle — it wasn’t a nit-fest. So I think it was wider than QQ/AK. Still, it’s either a) JJ+ or, b) two overcards (to a 10), if you ask me, allowing for the stray 99/88.
KJ or AK vs. TT can’t be that far apart, so that is a lot of range. Pairs are less likely statistically. I mean, she may have been in a sporting mood and made the move with 27o or two napkins. I figured on the spot that a shove was +EV. Now If I had bankroll that hugely outweighed the stakes...
Well I guess I might be predictable but I think a 3bet to 55-60 is good for value and isolation. I'm not in favor of info bets but it is an ancillary benefit. If she 4 bets, you have the answer. As played, it was a nice squeeze spot, light or not.
@highfive said:
Well I guess I might be predictable but I think a 3bet to 55-60 is good for value and isolation. I'm not in favor of info bets but it is an ancillary benefit. If she 4 bets, you have the answer. As played, it was a nice squeeze spot, light or not.
Ordinarily in a cash game, I'd like a 3-bet here. With his stack so short, he would have to be willing to call off the rest of it to a jam, wouldn't he? With a 3-bet to 60, he'd have 110 back and the pot would be 86 (20+60+2+5). 110 to win a pot of 306 means he'd need less than 30% equity vs villains 4-bet range. That's a call unless I knew I was being 4-bet by only QQ+.
I don't love set-mining with TT but flatting and inviting a few more into the pot could work out if he hit the flop. Just a tricky hand to play with that short of a stack. Probably could have just jammed it as well with 30BB. Lot's of ways to approach it but after flatting and being squeezed, what do you do? To me it came down to willingness to take a flip.
I'd consider a flop with no overcards (or 3-flush or 3-straight) to be hitting the flop, at least kind of. I mean, then I'd be ahead of all but 24/1326 possible hands.
From Ken Warren book: Chances of 1 or more overcards to a given pair on flop:
KK 22%
QQ 41%
JJ 57%
TT 69%
99 79%
I don't think that really solves it, though. I mean, if you go your whole life thinking "overcard = scare card..."
But, playable (set or no overcards) = ~40% of the time (maybe a little less)? That's not terrible if there's dead money.
Too bad a call gives up the betting lead. You can probably count on that C-bet hitting, too.
Nice stats. Most players likely do not know there's such a high % for overcards to QQ.)
Think ing this hand over, if one is going to short stack, then just ship it. Stacking off lightly is part of it. If thats too much then move down stakes.
@think said:
New to table, but it looked pretty splashy. Open was MP, as was I — not really a steal position, and the 3-bet was a little oversized.
I assume its a cash game... Did the original opener call or fold? That to me is important to note with TT...
Based on the "pot = 120?" can I assume opener folded?
Since you cold called the 20, if you call here you narrow your range to TT- or AA/AK. Villain may think that you are calling here with AQ or 99.
You are at the bottom of the calling range (debatable) and you have position. I vote for calling and playing Post-flop with position. I dont like a 4-bet shove with TT when I havent given myself enough hands at the table to know if I have the right opponent for that.
Comments
What position was the original open made from and what was your position? Full-ring or short-handed? This will help define BB's 3-beting range. Were you playing at the table for a while and get to see any of the hands BB was showing down with? Thanks for posting the question. I enjoy discussing preflop strategies with hands like JJ and TT. Everyone knows how to play AA and KK but things get more interesting as we move down the pocket-pair hierarchy.
What an interesting way to join a table! Well, unless he was making a really strange move with garbage, he has to call if you shove (and you really can't do anything but fold or shove). Cost him 90 more into a pot of ~270. Actually he can really call with almost anything unless he would fold rather than show he was making a move.
You have to decide whether to put 150 to work for a pot of 360 when he calls. That requires ~42% equity vs his 3-bet range. If you think he will only 3-bet with QQ+, AK then you don't have the required equity to call (36.4%) so you should fold. If you think he would also 3-bet with AQ, then you have the equity to call at 42.8%, but just barely. You would have to decide whether you're in a gambling mood or not and place 150 on a coin flip. If you think his range is any wider, say including AJs along with A3s-A5s, then your equity comes up to over 48%. Still close to a flip.
So, if I was in a feisty mood and had a few rebuys left in my pocket, I could find a call here. Win or lose the hand, I've set myself up to get action for the rest of the session and that works for me. However, if I didn't have money to reload a few times, a more prudent decision would be to grit my teeth and make a really tough fold. Cost me 20 but I still have 75BB to work with and look for better spots. If I had any hint of a clue that he was squeezing light, I snap him off but you said you had no info yet. Therefore I'll be a nit and say I'd probably fold. I'd absolutely hate it but I think this is the better play in the absence of information. I don't need to flip for stacks so I'd settle in and get to work recouping my 20 chips, plus exhrbitant interest
ADDED: I reviewed this and made a mistake. I thought it was a 1/2 game and you would have 75BB left. Upon reading it through again, I see it was a 2/5 game so you would only have 30BB left. I'm not sure I'd sit at a table with that short a stack anyway so my opinion is shifting to shoving it and doubling up or going home. 30BB in a cash game isn't enough to work with IMO. Always top off if you can.
I’m figuring I don’t want to flip for stacks just yet. But I’m also figuring she’s ready for a tussle — it wasn’t a nit-fest. So I think it was wider than QQ/AK. Still, it’s either a) JJ+ or, b) two overcards (to a 10), if you ask me, allowing for the stray 99/88.
KJ or AK vs. TT can’t be that far apart, so that is a lot of range. Pairs are less likely statistically. I mean, she may have been in a sporting mood and made the move with 27o or two napkins. I figured on the spot that a shove was +EV. Now If I had bankroll that hugely outweighed the stakes...
Ordinarily in a cash game, I'd like a 3-bet here. With his stack so short, he would have to be willing to call off the rest of it to a jam, wouldn't he? With a 3-bet to 60, he'd have 110 back and the pot would be 86 (20+60+2+5). 110 to win a pot of 306 means he'd need less than 30% equity vs villains 4-bet range. That's a call unless I knew I was being 4-bet by only QQ+.
I don't love set-mining with TT but flatting and inviting a few more into the pot could work out if he hit the flop. Just a tricky hand to play with that short of a stack. Probably could have just jammed it as well with 30BB. Lot's of ways to approach it but after flatting and being squeezed, what do you do? To me it came down to willingness to take a flip.
I'd consider a flop with no overcards (or 3-flush or 3-straight) to be hitting the flop, at least kind of. I mean, then I'd be ahead of all but 24/1326 possible hands.
From Ken Warren book: Chances of 1 or more overcards to a given pair on flop:
KK 22%
QQ 41%
JJ 57%
TT 69%
99 79%
I don't think that really solves it, though. I mean, if you go your whole life thinking "overcard = scare card..."
But, playable (set or no overcards) = ~40% of the time (maybe a little less)? That's not terrible if there's dead money.
Too bad a call gives up the betting lead. You can probably count on that C-bet hitting, too.
Think ing this hand over, if one is going to short stack, then just ship it. Stacking off lightly is part of it. If thats too much then move down stakes.
I assume its a cash game... Did the original opener call or fold? That to me is important to note with TT...
Based on the "pot = 120?" can I assume opener folded?
Since you cold called the 20, if you call here you narrow your range to TT- or AA/AK. Villain may think that you are calling here with AQ or 99.
You are at the bottom of the calling range (debatable) and you have position. I vote for calling and playing Post-flop with position. I dont like a 4-bet shove with TT when I havent given myself enough hands at the table to know if I have the right opponent for that.