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Advisor on KJ


On Q10, K10, and even KJ and A10, the advisor tells me to fold with no bets pre-flop. Early position seems to determine this a lot, but it told me to fold KJ in middle position (with no raise or callers). Do the programmers really believe I should fold KJ in middle position? Do the pros agree?


  • gypwatson

    You didn't mention whether KJ was suited or not which may play a small part in the decision making. Obviously table dynamics will factor into your decision. Not sure I would just limp though. I'd be more inclined to raise ATs and maybe KJs. But the other hands will get you into trouble more often than they will pay off. What do others think?

  • AllenBlay

    I don't think this really fits in the APT Questions category because it really has nothing to do with APT - it is about hand ranges that are playable - so I'm going to move it to General Poker Questions.

    If these are offsuit, these are all terrible hands that will cost you a bunch of money if you try to play them. If you have KJo in middle position and you limp, you are just giving your money away.

    ATs should be raised from many positions. I'd raise KJs from some positions also. The other hands listed should not be played unless you are making a steal attempt. They are losing hands. A lot of things can factor into this (stack size, opponent skill, overall aggression or passiveness of remaining players behind you, etc.), but the majority of the hands you list QT, KT, etc. are just plain bad hands which play terribly post flop.

  • highfive

    Updated version: While not premium hands, these are not terrible hands as some believe.

    HU- always raise

    6max- open raise from all positions

    9max- open raise suited versions from all positions of the Js, 65% open the 10s from all positions. The other 35% folds i can guess are folds at aggressive, 3 betting tables. The offsuit versions start opening in middle positions. 100% open from lojack and later.
    These ranges taken from the book : Advanced Concepts in No-Limit Hold'em by Hunter Cichy
    Hunter in turn extracted them from PokerSnowie.
    PokerSnowie is a neural network system that plays poker 24/7/365 and adjusts strategy based on what it learns about winning bb/100 in Cash Games. The system has played trillions of hands.

    My own experience at low limit poker: Hero will get called by " my favorite" K9 and weaker, Qs, and many weaker holdings. So these hands are not terrible just not great. THey make good str8s, good flushes, and good top pairs. Nits loathe them because they do not have full nut potential.

    Cautionary note: These are not 3bet calling hands. Hero is behind even lite 3bets such as A3s. And so of course you are way behind the value 3bets. Fold to 3bets mostly. Maybe sneak in a multiway 3bet call some micro % of the time.

    HTH Highfive

    APT bots at all levels overfold to early position raises so i would open the suited versions from early 100% on APT.

  • 1warlock

    I like @highfive 's suggestions, with some stipulations. On loose passive tables I don't like opening these hands from EP because ranges will stay undefined preflop (lack of 3-betting to define them). In loose aggressive games you just have to be ok releasing them when 3-bet most of the time. Some of the hands make for good 3-bet bluffs, especially out of the SB but that's another matter.

    Your ranges have to fit your post-flop abilities and need to be adjusted to fit the players you are facing. Against nits I'd open these plus a ton of others. Against balanced players you need to have these in many of your opening ranges just so you have enough value and bluff combos. I don't take any range charts as gospel. I have the ranges I'm comfortable with and then I add or subtract depending on the circumstances.

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