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edited May 2018 in APT Questions

I lose about 95% of every race even though I have them beat before the flop . This site makes no sense.All it does is piss me off because it is rigged against the players.


  • AllenBlay
    edited May 2018

    I've deleted the other 4 similar threads you started, but I'll keep this one just to respond. The cards dealt are completely random, although I can tell from all the emails and forum posts that you are frustrated. I think you are dealing with three different things:

    1) humans have a tendency to only remember the bad beats
    2) In the short run poker can have tremendous variance
    3) It sounds like you are on tilt, which can lead you to play hands you shouldn't be playing, and that also can get you into situations where you think you are having bad luck, but in reality your opponent had the odds to be playing because you made mistakes in either bet sizing or playing hands you shouldn't have been playing in the first place.

    I looked at your account to see if you have been statistically unlucky - you haven't. Here is a screenshot from your luck screen in your reports.


    Everything on here is within normal statistical ranges - some things you have been lucky on, others not as lucky. But overall, your card distribution both at the deal and afterwards has been completely normal - any perceived unfairness is exactly that, completely perceived.

    One other thing I notice from your stats - you are playing a lot of hands and you are taking some of them too deep. If you look in your reports in the hand analysis tab, you're going to see that a lot of your losses are coming on hands you probably shouldn't be playing - and you have some really, really big losses on some single pair hands, which means you are building huge pots with mediocre hands. I think if you improve on those two things it will make a big difference in your game.

    If you would like to improve your game, I strongly recommend you look at your training plan you get each week and practice what is recommended to you. You'll notice as your skill gets higher, your "luck" will seem to get better.

  • highfive

    Weird stuff does happen contrary to the percentages here. However the owners have 1 out and it's a good one, bad beats do happen. I understand that but that's not the end of it.
    The question is:
    Does APT have an RNG that applies to everything, cash & tourneys, with bots and live?
    If yes, has the RNG been independently verified?
    If not, why not to both questions?
    Transparency would add credibility to the site after all.
    I have a list of things that happen here that do not happen in lower limit poker NLH. Mind you. I have 130k hands here mostly cash and millions of hands altogether. I am quite certain about lower limit NLH players styles and strat. @SteveBlay @bigrog67 @1warlock

  • AllenBlay

    Steve can reply to this more if he wants to, but actually yes, we use an RNG and dealing mechanism that is used in a lot of places. As far as why we wouldn't pay for independent verification, why would we? It would cost a lot of money (higher membership fees) and we are a training site, not a real money site. If we were a real money site, sure we would need to do that, but we aren't. I've got no incentive at all to rig the game - all that would do is make people upset. I don't see any good business model with poker training where we would profit from having our customers getting sucked out on a regular basis. It would just drive customers away. It would also make the training worse because it would misidentify leaks. If the leak analysis and training plans aren't accurate, customers don't improve and we don't have a good product. Our mission is to make the best and most realistic poker training product possible. Rigging the game just doesn't fit in with that mission.

    So more that just "bad beats happen", I think our biggest out on this is that we've spent years making the best poker training site around - based on what I felt like I needed to become a better player and the feedback and requests of our customers. Rigging the game would be highly counter-productive to our company's mission of making a realistic training game that accurately diagnoses and helps people improve.

    As an aside, I get just as many emails accusing us of being rigged in the opposite direction, "Everyone knows you just want us to feel good. I'm luckier here than on any other site, clearly it isn't random. I never have this much luck in a real game."

    I think the best proof you're going to find is for those of you with large samples of hands played on the site. Go to your reports->performance->hands. It shows your overall winrate on all hands. @highfive , you've got about 75,000 random hands played in 9-max. When you go and look at that page, what I expect you'll see given the sample size is a winnings chart that maps pretty much to what you would expect - very high win-rates with AA, and as you go down the diagonal and across the top winrates that decline and match to what you would expect in a normal poker game. If the cards were rigged to have more suck-outs, bad beats, or any other type of rigging, you wouldn't see that. A systematic pattern of bad beats would squeeze in the winrates so there wouldn't be extreme variance based on hand-type. If we were to analyze all 150MM+ hands that have been played on the site (and we have), we see the same pattern.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that unlike a real money site that has incentives to rig the game in favor of certain players to try to increase rake, we don't have that incentive - if the game isn't fair and an accurate depiction of a player's true strengths and weaknesses, we don't have a product that is worth anything.

  • SteveBlay

    I can't add much to what Allen already said, other than to say I am personally familiar with every line of source code myself. The RNG is a commonly used one that has been tested by many software developer to not have any trends or biases.

    There is no code in our software that purposefully puts bad beats on anyone. It may feel like it sometimes, but that's just poker.

  • bigrog67b

    So why is it that when I am all in with the best hand ,I am beat roughly 98% of the time by the river? I suppose you will tell me it is just variance. I say bs!

  • rainmaker314

    Bigrog67 do this, when you are playing, tag the hands where you take a beat. Also tag the hands when you put a beat on the bots. You could also tag the hands you win when you were the favorite and the ones you lose when you are the dog. Do it for 30 days and then review them. I did it for a week on bad beats and suck outs and found it was 50/50. Then I stopped worrying about it. It happens everywhere, here, poker stars, bet online, ACR and live. Last night 6/6/18 live 2 table tourney, final table 7 left, top 2 get paid. SB vs my BB limped pre, flop 875, I push w/ 89o. SB calls w/A7o. turn 7, river 7. Happens, gg, get em next time.

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