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Played too passively

edited November 2017 in Specific Hand Questions

What do I do on the flop here? It just seemed like folding was too weak.

And then on the turn, should I raise with my nut flush draw?


  • highfive

    You have a few options here. Of course I dont know your 3bet range. You are playing your range here.
    I would have 9s+ among many others in a 3bet blind vs blind situation.
    So you can raise flop reping over pairs. Then jam turn when you pick up equity. Can villan call a jam here?
    If bot has a set hero will get reraised on flop.
    If no raise on flop, then hero can jam turn if stacks are sufficient to still have fold equity.
    As played hero never has a chance to win unless flush comes in.
    Would hero call if an offsuit K or A hits river? Should hero call in said situation? Separate question I guess.
    Bot has played hand poorly IMO. Leading into a 3bettor is bad poker. If villan hits big or not, villan often loses value. 3bettor can fold when weak and can raise when strong causing villan to lose again. In summary leader loses value if 3bettor is strong or weak.
    I say check entire range OOP. Then proceed from there.

  • 1warlock
    edited May 2018

    As usual, @highfive made some excellent points. Bot is playing like its a decade ago and he just read a book on equity denial. Donk-leads in this situation are almost never strength. People used to do this with all sorts of garbage hands, assuming the 3-bettor missed the low card flop. More modern iterations of this play require 3-barreling to be effective. Donk's check on the river is saying "I have 1 pair". Anyone making a play like this today is going to be exploited mercilessly.

    IMO, this is a good spot to raise the flop bet. You will force some folds from total air and some 2nd pair or worse hands right off the bat. A pot-sized raise needs to be successful in forcing a fold 50% of the time to be profitable. In addition, you will be charging hands like J10, 10/7, 5/6 a bad price to see the next card. If you are re-raised, you can let go of your hand. If you are flat-called, you are still in position on the turn to make your decision with plenty of ways to improve. On a blank card or overcard, if he checks, you can fire. If he leads out again and you haven't improved, you can release.

    As played, once you called the flop, I think calling the turn was fine. You picked up equity and still had position. If another spade came out, the donk may still bet into you with the nuts (happy dance time). I would not raise with the 2-overcards and the nut flush draw because I don't want to be blown off my equity if he jams.

  • pk506p

    Classic lead bet from villain, as previously stated. Notice the player type! Now notice the sizing... less that 1/2 pot. This is fairly common still in live play (I don't play too much online). You can look at it two ways.

    A. Villain has a weak made hand, sometimes a weak draw and is probing to narrow your range all the while setting his price. You still have AA-88 in your range and he can narrow you down much easier here than if he check/calls. When you call, he can discount overpairs and is likely to assume you have an overcards or some other weak hand. This is blind v blind after all. However, like @1warlock stated, this is a horrid play because he would have to fold out his EQ, maybe the best hand, to a big raise! Exploitable for sure and very often the case with these weak donk bets.

    B. Villain flopped a monster and is sucking you in, praying you have a big overpair and raise him. In live play, AK/AQ just so often gets checked back from the preflop raiser because "I can neeeeeever win with AK!" lol. Again, not a good play. There are so many better options to take with a flopped monster in a 3bet pot oop. It's rarely utilized any more without a good read as most players realize they should either check raise flop, cc flop/cr turn, c flop/lead turn (depending on texture).

    This flop texture in this case is fairly neutral, he really only has 9 sets and 2 combos of 98s for big hand possibilities vs a large number of open enders and gutshots, low PP's, and top/middle pairs that can't be too happy (Q9/J8, etc...). Being blind on blind, you can have all these hands as well, with the bonus of being uncapped. I agree with @1warlock and @highfive that this is a good spot for a flop raise. You can likely fold to a three bet. Shove turn if V calls flop raise/checks turn.

    As played, I think turn call is right. On river you can't rep a strong hand so you are done when river bricks.

    Again... player type. Looks like this guy is pretty LAG. Against this player, I would make my preflop 3 bet bigger with all of my value hands (and a dosing of bluffs and what lies in between)... 110 to 120. Getting a fold here pre flop is perfectly fine. Likewise, I'm happy to get this hand in pre for 100 bb if he goes there.

    Would be happy to hear some more thoughts on this!

  • dhirigoyd

    Visibility is what makes this game easier. When he bets this low flop, you've got to raise him hard (X3). If he reraises then it's a fold. If he just calls, then see what happens on the turn but there's a good chance the bot will fold a flop reraise with that holding. Just my humble thought.

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