Losing Player

apache3a
apache3
Veteran in Off Topic

Hi.
I have been playing poker consistently online for about twelve years now mainly low stakes Tornies. I want to be successful and have read books, listen to online analysis, use Poker tracker and recently joined APT to try and improve my game - but overall I remain a losing player.
My APT ROI is starting to demonstrate a similar downward trend whilst my rating is just above average at 104, but am struggling to identify where I am going wrong or need improvement - I feel my game needs a major overhaul and a complete re-think - but really struggling where to start.
Any advice would be much appreciated.

Comments

  • highfive
    highfive
    Power Poster

    Probably placed in wrong section for an answer. I 'll give it a shot.
    After 12 years I say you are mentally tough enough for poker.
    You don't quit.)
    Having no idea about your game, I 'D refer you to the fundamentals.
    The biggest problem with losing players is playing too many hands.
    Solve this by knowing what range of hands you are going to play before arriving at the table. Good players actually play online with a hand range chart in front of them.
    Pot Odds
    You should know the pot size and odds you are getting at all times. Easy online but live you must track it yourself. Some say if you make correct odds decisions consistently, you will win long term.
    Play cash games on APT. Better way to learn strategy IMO
    I would not give pokerIQ much credence. Its an opinion since holdem isn't solved. Its also compared to the style this site teaches, super tight, fit or fold.

    You are not going to cash mostly in tourneys. True even for the best players in the world.

    Note: if you cannot beat the lower levels of APT cash, your game IS fundamentally flawed. Its very easy.
    Better luck.

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Thanks Highfive, I will start the lower stakes cash games and see where we go - you comments much appreciated.

  • highfive
    highfive
    Power Poster
    Any update @apache3 ? Getting better?
  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Hi Highfive.

    Hope you are well.
    Been playing the cash low stakes and seem to dominate, so guessing my game fundamentals are fairly robust.
    I have generally reverted back to Torneys (my preferred game), I do play the 'hard' level but still find myself struggling to improve my rating which remains 104.
    I have refreshed my memory regarding pot odds and referred back to some books I tucked away so feel fairly confident in this respect.
    Are you able to give any further advice which may help in improving my rating?

    Thanks in anticipation.

  • highfive
    highfive
    Power Poster
    Yes but it would require you to play tight and only raise value. That means you have to run card hot and bet value.
    Vague answer indeed. Poker IQ is great branding because it gives the rating a definitive nature. It is just an opinion though.
    The analyzer was built to analyze 9 max cash games as compared to other APT players. What does that have to do with tourneys? Correct. Nothing.
    My AF aggression factor in tourneys is 99 sometimes. Lol. Average AF? Something like 1.75 to 3? Its not built for push/fold aspects of tourney poker or the reshove tactics.
    To improve tourney play, I would reexamine your ranges when antes are in play. Generally when more money is in the pot, players have to widen their ranges bc there is more dead money to go after. Get in the mix and try to get pots.

    I will invite @1warlock to comment. It is very likely he is a better tourney player than I am.
    He plays higher stakes cash and WPT tourneys.
    So warlock, apache3 is trying to improve his tourney game. He has been playing awhile and seems to have hit a ceiling. One comment wont do it so maybe you can create a dialogue to help improve?
  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Thank Highfive.
    Your opinion and comments are greatly appreciated, I will relook at my ranges, think my starting hands are pretty good to the flop but struggle with turn and river play particularly in a multi-way pot, so perhaps more practice here would benefit.
    Look forward to 1warlock comments!
    Once again thanks for your assistance.

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster

    hi @apache3

    i hear the pain, i have nowhere near your experience but i play a few MTT a week, for small buy-ins $5-$17... as well as ones i get a satellite or ticket for them... most of the tournaments have over 1000 players... some over 8000
    so it becomes easy to get discouraged
    i also have read dozens of poker books and tried to absorb the strategy and tactics specific to tournaments

    seems #1 priority is survival, at the early levels... survive and protect your chips and let the maniacs demolish each other... don't take any risks with marginal hands... i don't like such a Tight game as folding 85%+ my hands gets boring as the hours drag on

    then the antes accelerate and it becomes necessary to widen your playable ranges, and try to pick opportunities... like in position pick up blinds... and of course play premium hands and be prepared to go to the wall with them

    when reaches the later stages - its all luck and timing... you want AA when bad guy has KK, before your stack size forces you to shove with second rate garbage

    i get discouraged but have set my tournie goals reasonable... i wish to end in the top 25-30%, with a hope to get into the money... so when i end up in the top 25% i rejoice and if i get in the money I do a happy dance lol

    when you get down... think this... watch TV tournaments like the WPT and see the many many poker super stars that get eliminated on day one.

    tournaments have the lure... like if i invest $11 to play the PokerStars Sunday Storm i have a shot to win $45,000+ (along with a zillion other players hahaha) ... plus with luck i have an enjoyable Sunday playing 3-4 hours of poker

    if I invest the $11 in my usual SNGs - i a chance to win maybe... $45

    good luck with your tournies please let me know how you doin ok?

    hugs
    Krista

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster edited August 2018

    @apache, I just noticed I was invited to comment by @highfive so I'll toss my 2-cents into the ring. 1st of all, I wouldn't place much importance on your poker IQ scores. If your goal is to win money playing online MTT's, that should be your goal. If you want to play APT like a videogame to see how high you can get your IQ score, then worry about it.

    Tell me the format of game you want to play in and I will try to help you with strategy to improve. I have always preached that format is king when it comes to poker. What works for 250BB starting stacks and 2-hour levels at the WSOP Main is not appropriate for a hyper-turbo online game with 67.5BB starting stacks and blinds increasing every 3 minutes. If you don't know which format you want to get better at, tell us what type of poker you want to play. Are you very aggressive with only small windows of time to get games in or do you prefer the meta-game and can devote 3+ hours? Maybe something in between? Do you like defined starting times or do you want to play games as soon as a table can fill up just whenever you happen to log on?

    We are all here to help each other as best we can. In order to give you my best advice, I need to know as much about what you are trying to accomplish and what your baseline is now. IMO, almost anyone who is willing to work can be taught to show a profit at smaller buy-in MTT's and SnG's. The reason for that is most of the competition won't put the time in.

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster

    sorrie... i wasn't invited to answer on this... please refer to @1warlock and @highfive .. they experienced advice givers on such questions on forum
    and best of luck
    hugs

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Thanks Krista.

    All input is much appreciated, I find your thought process of finishing in the top 25% to be a success interesting, would generally aim for the cut-off as a minimum - but in terms of reducing perceived failure/frustration it may assist, particularly on a bad run & perhaps in avoiding the onslaught of 'tilt'.

    Thanks

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Thanks 1Warlock, again comment much appreciated, I am and will remain an improving player (I tell myself), my aim is certainly to be successful at what I do and with poker that means make money.

    Note your comments re the APT IQ score and will not give it so much credence going forward.

    I do play turbo's/hypers but these would usually be satellites which I find a bit of a 'crap-shoot' particularly if rebuys available, my target event would be MTT 10 -15min blinds levels - this is my preferred format and certainly where I would like to improve. I will ensure I have the time to take part in the torney and happy to play 3+ hour events, depending on my Satellite success buy-in can vary enormously $11 - $215, but mostly play $5 - $22 buy in.

    Any further advice/tips/comments to help me improve in this area would be gratefully received.

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    I'm sure you will continue to improve @apache3. Being willing to put in the work gives you an advantage over a large part of the field who simply aren't. I'm also glad you like the longer-format games as I think those provide the most opportunities for players with skill to succeed. The shorter the format, the higher the variance. The larger the field, this higher the variance. While we can't eliminate variance from the game, especially in MTT's, we want to maximize the value of skill and minimize the value of luck as much as we can.

    1st thing I'd do is read every single article on the site I am pasting a link to here: https://upswingpoker.com/?s=mtt

    Work on the basics 1st, like open sizing, blind defense, ICM implications and push/fold charts. Then start breaking the tournaments down into stages. The longer the format, the more stages there will be and your strategy needs to shift for each one. At the start of deeper MTT's, they play almost like cash games. As the MTT moves on and stacks get shorter, the biggest problem most players have is that they tighten up too much at exactly the wrong time. I don't know if this applies to you or not but learning when to open up while others are tightening up will yield huge results as soon as you try it. You will bust out more but you will also win more overall from going deeper in games. Payouts are always top-loaded so while cashing is always nice, your long-term profitability will depend on whether you run deep or win more than on how frequently you just cash.

    I'll be around and be happy to help with any questions you may have. Recognizing that you have issues with your game currently and being willing to work on improving is easily half the battle. All I'm doing here is pointing you in the right direction so that you can get proper advice and tips from professionals. Tournament poker is different from cash games and each type of tournament requires a different strategy. You will quickly see how much of an advantage you will have once you can select your games purposefully, break them down into stages and have your entire game-plan laid out before you are dealt a single hand. The game becomes so much easier once you have done the advance work and can then concentrate on playing.

    GL

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    thank you @apache3...
    you appreciate that others, beyond the regular orcales here can have an opinion too

    i struggle like you... with all the time and money i have invested why i not doing better?
    remember that 95% of poker players lose money, regardless of their big mouths

    also seems 85% of it i luck... watch the semi-pros play on twitch, they play 8 simultaneous tables, and maybe one of them they get into the money... if we have bankroll support that maybe we do as well?

    how about we stay at it?

    what i doing now is stop play the $3-7 things and playing higher ones daily.... seems the players more regular, what we expect.... at $15-50 things

    play solid... keep at it... let me know how you doin

    hugs
    Krista

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    @1warlock said:
    I'm sure you will continue to improve @apache3. Being willing to put in the work gives you an advantage over a large part of the field who simply aren't. I'm also glad you like the longer-format games as I think those provide the most opportunities for players with skill to succeed. The shorter the format, the higher the variance. The larger the field, this higher the variance. While we can't eliminate variance from the game, especially in MTT's, we want to maximize the value of skill and minimize the value of luck as much as we can.

    1st thing I'd do is read every single article on the site I am pasting a link to here: https://upswingpoker.com/?s=mtt

    Work on the basics 1st, like open sizing, blind defense, ICM implications and push/fold charts. Then start breaking the tournaments down into stages. The longer the format, the more stages there will be and your strategy needs to shift for each one. At the start of deeper MTT's, they play almost like cash games. As the MTT moves on and stacks get shorter, the biggest problem most players have is that they tighten up too much at exactly the wrong time. I don't know if this applies to you or not but learning when to open up while others are tightening up will yield huge results as soon as you try it. You will bust out more but you will also win more overall from going deeper in games. Payouts are always top-loaded so while cashing is always nice, your long-term profitability will depend on whether you run deep or win more than on how frequently you just cash.

    I'll be around and be happy to help with any questions you may have. Recognizing that you have issues with your game currently and being willing to work on improving is easily half the battle. All I'm doing here is pointing you in the right direction so that you can get proper advice and tips from professionals. Tournament poker is different from cash games and each type of tournament requires a different strategy. You will quickly see how much of an advantage you will have once you can select your games purposefully, break them down into stages and have your entire game-plan laid out before you are dealt a single hand. The game becomes so much easier once you have done the advance work and can then concentrate on playing.

    GL

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Thanks Warlock, I said it before and I'll say it again I do appreciate you taking the time and effort to respond.

    I will get the reading glasses out and start with that link.

    You comments regarding stages and differing strategies I feel are very valid to my style of play, whilst i understand the concept i think my strategy remains very monotone as I do struggle knowing when the time is right and against whom should I start widening my ranges, often I get short stacked being to nitty & then feel pressure to play in a less than ideal spot - this is most certainly an area where my play needs to improve.

    Any thoughts in this regard would be appreciated, will start the revision work and see where we go.

    Thanks

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    @krista said:
    thank you @apache3...
    you appreciate that others, beyond the regular orcales here can have an opinion too

    i struggle like you... with all the time and money i have invested why i not doing better?
    remember that 95% of poker players lose money, regardless of their big mouths

    also seems 85% of it i luck... watch the semi-pros play on twitch, they play 8 simultaneous tables, and maybe one of them they get into the money... if we have bankroll support that maybe we do as well?

    how about we stay at it?

    what i doing now is stop play the $3-7 things and playing higher ones daily.... seems the players more regular, what we expect.... at $15-50 things

    play solid... keep at it... let me know how you doin

    hugs
    Krista

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Hi Krista

    It is difficult to understand what to do for the best, it is a very frustrating game but one I enjoy, but yet to conquer.

    Clearly I/we need to improve and actually implement what I/we know/learn, so onwards and upwards in making those improvement, yes, lets keep each other updated.

    Thanks

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster

    hi @apache3

    yes i agree! lately with much examination of hands played... seems to me, now that i am playing higher $ events the players greatly change and some strategies no longer work so well

    like CBets... at micro levels Cbets usually successful, all the limpers are anxious see the flop and usually wont connect with top things, so a Cbet and if you no get them all fold and no re-raise, larger bet on the turn usually almost always wins pot

    my mantra was ALWAYS Cbet - if a face card, or 3 cards below 9 flop

    now when i do that at higher $ levels i seldom get fold, fold... and often get 3bet (likely they read same books i did hahaaha)
    and my Cbet usually gets called or raised yikes

    also at micro levels, position means little to people, its all about their cards, so a RFI from early position, doesn't necessarily mean a very strong hand... yet at higher levels position has much more impact on the villains and their moves

    i think we have to realize that a lot of our strategy is dependent on the level we play at, and we need to adjust

  • krista
    krista
    Power Poster edited September 2018

    .

  • apache3a
    apache3
    Veteran

    Yes I agree, definitely CBet works better at lower stakes on the flop, generally it finds a fold unless they have hit something or they are a maniac.
    Again I find the same as you with the higher stakes, the more experience will understand the flop texture and recognise the CBet it seems, but when playing a loose/aggressive player I have successfully barrelled again (stack size dependent) on the turn and taken the pot, don't do it often and needs to be quite selective but seems to work, obviously if the betting continues would need to consider folding.

  • think
    think
    Veteran

    @1warlock said:
    I'm also glad you like the longer-format games as I think those provide the most opportunities for players with skill to succeed. The shorter the format, the higher the variance. The larger the field, this higher the variance. While we can't eliminate variance from the game, especially in MTT's, we want to maximize the value of skill and minimize the value of luck as much as we can.

    GL

    I'm with you, but if you are looking for +EV and you have 3 hours and, do you play one 3 hour tournament or 5-10 one table sit-and-go's, if the TOTAL buy-in is equivalent? I think the more reps with the smaller format would definitely have the least variance, partly because you don't have to plow through 30-100+ players to get to the money, and partly because we can put the same amount of money into play with a lower buy-in per tournament.

    Which one rewards skilled play the most efficiently (over the long term, i.e.: time or total buy-in invested) is arguable, but I would say that someone skilled in strategies conducive to turbo play (compared to a given player pool) could definitely turn a short-stack, 3 min blind tournament into an advantage play -- it would take more tournaments to work itself out, but, you know, if you're doing a tournament every fifteen minutes...

    I could be completely wrong about this, by the way. But I know that the hallmark of MTT's IS the variance, when 1/8 maybe cash at all, and the finishers at the very top get such a big cut.

  • 1warlock
    1warlock
    Power Poster

    @think - I suppose the most EV+ play is the one that works best for you. People specialize in different formats. There are people who do nothing but turbos, playing 6+ tables at a time and opening a new one as soon as they finish another. I'd lose my mind doing that. On the other hand, since I started life as a live cash player, I'm not a great multi-tabler and don't really enjoy it so I'm not unbiased. I'd say just look at your own results and get a $/hr from each type of game and decide off the data.

    Best of luck to you.

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